Well, apparently my earlier post has hit a nerve with the guys of Kama Lifestyles. I noticed that a high proportion of visits to the post were coming via a site called irishseduction.com so thought I’d register and check it out.
Apparently I’m stupid, repressed and never get laid. Clearly never met me then. Check out some of the things that have been said:
Well, thanks lads. You’ve managed to get me completely wrong! Good to know that despite all of your training you have absolutely no understanding of women at all. Money well spent eh?! Muppets!
As for the lovely chap who’s going to find me on a night out and… “If I do “recognise” her I am going to go in with two guns of game blazing, game her into bed with a charm offensive and then photograph her and blog about it :-)”
Bring it on I say. Bring as much game as you can muster. You don’t stand a fucking chance. I not only have a brain and therefore eliminate myself from your target market, but I also have the ability to spot an absolute wanker when I see one and know when to tell him to “fuck off”.
As for treating men like shit, I don’t think so. The only men I treat like shit are the ones who deserve it. So yeah, chances are if you approached me I’d turn my nose up at you as frankly you’re not good enough. Plus isn’t this a bit like the pot calling the kettle black? The way you appear to treat women is appalling. When you treat women with respect they’ll respect you back and that ultimately makes for something more worthwhile… which I imagine is what you’re after, in the long run.
I’m glad you’ve all found away to overcome whatever deep and serious insecurities that you have and genuinely wish you all the best for the future. I have nothing against men being confident – in fact I’m all for it. More power to you. I just question your methods – treating women like pieces of meat isn’t on. It’s not the middle ages any more. If we don’t like you, we don’t like you. Suck it up!
It doesn’t make us gay, or “retarded” (which, by the way, is an awesome use of the English language), it just makes us a bit too choosy to drop our knickers for you. But then, if that’s the kind of woman you’re after I know just the one…
Adventures of a Curly Girl 
Hmm. I’ll write a wordy defense. Or will I? Or won’t I? Or can I? Or is there an s in defense? Or- oh no now I’m confused!!!!! And a little bit dizzy. Was it the exclamation marks????? Or the creatine MegaBrainGain4Thousand breakfast cereal? Or is my teeshirt cutting off circulation to my, erm, what is up there anyway? Oh yeah, my beautiful hair. Ohmigod what if my tite tee causes hair loss????? I have to tell the lads that. Note to self: tite tee hair loss. Now, what was it I was doing again? Oh yeah, erm, no, it was… erm… lezzers! Yes! Something about lezzers. Oh flip. Confused again!
Hello Curly Girl,
I was informed by a friend of mine about this topic. Firstly, I apologise for any offence that may have been construed.
I love your blog and I actually love what you have just written and I only wish the young guys (mentally) would actually listen to what women have to say. I will tell you for a fact that if I acted in that way my female friends would give me a whack over the back of the head and told to shut up, which they did when I was a boy.
From reading your blog, I can see that you are a very smart, independent and sassy person who does not brook any bullshit.
Certainly the Kama video can look hysterical from an outside perspective. I personally have nothing to do with the outfit Kama Lifestyles.
I would love to hear your own perspective on my website as a female opinion is badly needed.
Regards,
Stealth (I also have curly hair)
Hi Stealth,
Thanks for your reply. I’ll certainly have a look at the site overall and give you some objective feedback. Despite what some of the men in your community think, I am open minded and actually think fair play to them for trying to get over any anxiety or insecurity that they have. We all need to do that or we’ll never get anywhere.
To clarify my stance on the original point, it was that the manner in which KL seem to be approaching “dating” is completely out of sync with what women want and just undermines their end goal.
No offence was caused by comments on your site – I mainly just found them hilarious. Although I do appreciate you taking the time out to post a reasoned and reasonable response. You could clearly teach a lot of your members a thing or two about how to communicate and have a decent, enlightening discussion.
Thanks
Dena
Oh Thanks for the sweet comments Dena!
If only young guys would listen to me but I don’t go running around bars so I am not that cool anymore 😦
I like your style and would totally love to have a coffee and a good conversation with you. I could even point out all the “players” walking around town as a bonus 😉
Stealth
Hi,
My login for your site doesn’t seem to be working any more. If you genuinely would like some objective (not biased) feedback I’ll be happy to help, but will need to be able to gain access.
Thanks
I emailed you about this. I was told that one admin kicked you. We, the more mature guys “sorted” that little problem out, so I promise it won’t happen again. Funny how some people shun the very thing they want (hmmmm)
Just as Karma are allowed post there stuff so too are you. Plus I think girls are more qualified to teach then guys so why don’t you set up a little company and come up with the ARMAGEDDON SYSTEM!!!
Thanks – emailed you back 🙂
PS I own the website http://www.irishseduction.com 😉
Oh, lord. Us women, eh? We’re stupid. Wanting better and wanting to be treated with respect OBVIOUSLY makes us lesbians. How terrible. That being the case, I’ll be over here, with the girls.
Proof if it were needed that the type associated with this, as, “programme” have no idea how to talk to a woman. Clue: not as if her brain lives in her knickers.
How very amusing!!!
I discussed ‘the game’ whilst on a date with a lovely, intelligent, perceptive man last night- but yes still a mans man, he doesnt like shopping, drinks pints and plays Rugby…
His comment was – well yeah Nicola you would find that ridiculous as you have more than half a brain, these ‘gamers’ are welcome to the girls who no doubt will fall for their shite, personally i will stick to the intelligent, interesting, sparky girls like you’
I would like to point out that ‘curlygirl’ falls into all of those catergories and many more and that the gamers are missing out on a whole world of amazing women just because they are not playing the right game!!
love it Dena! x
Is that banner really you? I wouldn’t even think of approaching you. Wow. Ugly ^_^
I cant help but respond to ‘trickz’s’ charming post as a relative of Dena’s i cant but feel he is insulting her as well as my esteemed gene pool!! (I did however have a small laugh about his name ‘ tricks and games eh! )
Trickz – you just proved Dena’s very point, she is in fact stunning, however her charm runs much deeper than that – you unwittingly displayed your lack of depth,charm, perception and no doubt brains! 😉
Hey Dena thats a fab idea, liking it stealth!
I can feel a ‘well heeled divas’ for dublin coming on! xx
Curly Girl, you have made some good points and I respect the fact that you have voiced your opinion on this matter. It’s always interesting to hear things from a female perspective.
I’m not going to defend any of the harsh things that you were said about you on Irishseduction but I do think there is a gross misunderstanding amongst girls of what this whole “game” stuff is all about.
On the whole, the overall goal is personal development, self-fulfillment and building a better life for yourself. It could be classed as another category of self-help. Sure there are even similar classes for women out there! I don’t have any hangups about that!
This material exists because a lot of males in our modern society just don’t have the natural social skills needed to succeed with women. They need help.
Because this topic has gained a lot of interest over the areas, there have been many developments including a lot of “tricks. Personally I have no interest in these and can completely understand why girls would not be keen on knowing that they were being “tricked”. Thankfully, I was always a natural extrovert and didn’t have problems making spontaneous conversation with people but just needed some improvement in putting my best foot forward in interactions with girls I like.
Hi Tickler,
Thanks for your reply. My posts are not trying to argue that men should not be seeking ways to improve their confidence with women and sometimes need a helping hand to find that. Who could have a problem with that? We can be an intimidating bunch I’m sure. So if a self-help seminar or book or chat with a friend helps a fella gain enough confidence to approach a woman and start a conversation, then that’s brilliant.
My issue with the Kama Lifestyles videos and their overall tone of voice is primarily that they seem to be pedaling tricks to almost con a girl into giving a bloke her number or more. I would reference the initial video that I posted where the speaker discussed his “nuclear weapon” – basically tricking a girl into believing that somebody else likes you so that she’ll get jealous and like you herself – except he’s not had the balls to keep it on YouTube (clearly can’t stand by his advice!)
If the men that come to Kama Lifestyles are genuinely lacking in confidence and are looking for “Dating Training”, then Kama Lifestyles are miss-selling their offering. What they actually appear to be doing is training men to become sexual predators. I’d stopped short of saying that before as I don’t want to be inflammatory, but I do feel the game (for massive want of a better word here) has been brought to me, so I might as well play along a little.
I don’t care the slightest what the guys on IrishSeduction have said about me. It does nothing but show them to be utterly misguided about the psyche of women and clearly in need of some more, better, training. We don’t want guys to use tricks on us – if you use self-motivation techniques to muster the courage to talk to us in a bar, on the street, wherever, then that’s absolutely fine. Good luck to you – genuinely. However, if you’re trying to “game” us into liking/sleeping with you, we’ll ultimately resent you for it and any potential relationship is therefore over before it’s begun really. We all need trust in a relationship – so starting it off with deceit and tricks is absolutely the wrong way to go about it.
If you just want to get a girl into bed and don’t give a shit about what happens afterwards, then “Game” away. Go for your life. I just hope that when someone does the same thing to you sister/cousin/mother you’ll be as accepting and OK with it.
I am 100% in favour of men going out and learning how to become confident and hope that they all go on to find happy, fulfilling relationships. I just think the only way these guys are ever going to get that is by being honest – to themselves and to women.
The first hurdle for most men is the initial approach to a women they are attracted to, and this is where a lot of the ‘Inner Game’/personal-development material can help.
If only it was as easy as simply approaching and starting a conversation, as you said. But unfortunately it is not. When a man does glean the confidence to go talk to a girl in a bar and start a conversation, he really has to put his “best foot forward” and convey his character and personality in a short time frame or else he will be blown out by the girl within a few short minutes. Being “yourself” is sometimes not enough. Making a strong first impression is the goal. It’s almost like an job interview. You may exaggerate or highlight your positive traits while suppressing your weaknesses in order to come across as desirable. You know if they gave you a chance, they would eventually see that you’re worth a shot. If you went in “as yourself” in normal mode from the outset, with that time constraint hanging over your head(e.g in an interview or during a brief interaction with a girl at the bar), you wouldn’t make as much of an impression and she would just see you as another uninteresting normal bloke!
Some gaming techniques are used to create more rapport or excitement in the conversation. They’re used as enhancers. To be honest though, a lot of the tricks and techniques are there for newbies as training wheels to get them used to talking to women. When I say newbies, I’m talking about men who have been bedroom-bound and have ZERO social confidence. ‘Being yourself’ would do NOTHING to help this type of guy succeed with women.
More feedback on these points are welcome, curly girl. I enjoy debate and criticism!
I am actually the mod that disabled your account Curly.
Didn’t want the situation getting out of hand and getting messy so thought it was for the best — my bad.
Enjoy your stay and be nice! 😉
Be nice? Like the blokes on your site have been nice? Silly thing is, I probably would/will be – I’m generally pretty nice like that.
I’m curious to know – did you suspend the accounts of the people that wrote offensive, personal comments about me? You were quick to cancel my membership despite me never saying anything personal about them?
Hmm, something tells me you probably didn’t!…
God i am loving this debate!
Tickler you make some interesting yet i feel misguided comments ( well from a girls point of view anyway…)
Personally i hate to think that a guy is going to feel under pressure to make his full personality known in the first few short minutes or risk being blown out – are we really seen these days as being so harsh? – if thats the case then its no wonder you lot are looking for new ways to approach!
So in response i would say what needs to happen here is, guys make your approach genuine, a nice compliment is always good, as is some witty and inoffensive banter! Female friends will give you far better advice than kama on this and i doubt charge you 300!!
But also girls give the guys a bit of a break, we have all got a bit scary and intimidating these days and blokes dont know how to deal with us, if someone has plucked up the courage to come over to chat ( and this only counts if he is saying something ‘genuine’ ‘nice’ and not a quick line set to ‘melt our brains’ ) then be nice, interested or not lets acknowledge the fact that he came over in the first place – compliment indeed!
Note to self – I should have remembered this when telling a bloke in a bar that his tie was horrendous and it would be better in his pocket!!
Fair point Nicola. I embrace a female perspective on matters like these. I find it very valuable.
“are we really seen these days as being so harsh?” – Not really but sometimes you can encounter a girl who can be really harsh if you approach her with some normal, every-day conversation opener…usually these girls are the REALLY attractive girls who get approached by men all the time and are generally downright sick of having to constantly ward off all these randy losers. it’s this type of experience that can freak the bejaysus out of a lad and potentially scare him out of approaching again! These are the kinds of issues men have to deal with in social scenarios. Men have to do the approach…NOT women. You girls don’t know the pain of it all!!
To go off on a tangent, this ‘approach anxiety’ is actually an evolutionary mechanism, engineered to warn early man of the potential risks he ran when approaching a woman he desired . e.g. if rejected by the woman he approached he could be ejected from the tribe or be attacked by the alpha male of the tribe or never have a chance with any other females in the tribe because the rejection would be made public. If any of these things did happen, he could risk having his genes weeded out of his existence forever. Although these risks are no longer viable in the 21st century, our bodies haven’t been updated with modern society. This ‘biological mechanism’ is integrated into every man today!
“Female friends will give you far better advice than kama on this and i doubt charge you 300!!”. I agree with you to some degree but, generally speaking, most female friends will just say things like “Just be confident” or “Be funny” or “Just buy her a drink” etc. These are very vague, unhelpful things for a man to hear! You can’t just BE confident all of a sudden! Also, a lot of girls are very different and one opinion given by one particular girl may completely contradict another girl’s opinion.
What I really to get across to the girls here is that there is nothing malicious going on. Sure, some lads out there getting into Game will misuse the material and come across as dicks. For the most part though, we’re making it more fun and interesting for both parties!
I don’t need alcohol to talk to women, like most non-gaming men. I can guarantee that you’d find a conversation with me far more exciting and interesting than an average bloke. Not trying to boast here but I have seen the vast improvement in my social and conversational skills…and it’s all thanks to Game!!!
You’ll have to excuse me if I remain cynical about the overall premise of “Game”. Women give you that advice because that’s what we want. If you’re nervous to approach us – be nervous, tell us you’re nervous, be cheesy as hell and send a drink over, or get your mate to tell us you think we’re pretty, whatever. Just be genuine!
Tricks and games are idiots, I’m sorry but it’s true. Motivational and self-confidence building tools do not fall into the category of tricks or games by the way. What was evident on the Kama Lifestyles videos was neither a motivational or self-confidence building tool though, and that’s what is at the core of the argument. They were pushing techniques to trick girls into liking you, scoring you, sleeping with you etc and that is a whole different thing altogether.
Girls like chatting to blokes, abso-fucking-lutely we do. But we don’t like games, as frankly they’re intimidating, however funny or charming you may be or think you’re being, the majority of girls will see through it as being fake. This leads to feeling intimidated, threatened and unsafe. For every one of you out there that is genuinely looking to improve your ability to chat to girls there’s 15 others looking to get you into bed, shag you and kick you out the door.
Plus, tragically, there’s also one or two out there that aren’t great at knowing where the boundaries lie with regards to coercion and force – they’re the VAST minority, and I’m in no way saying that anyone at the seminars or on the site falls into the latter category, but it’s what runs through a girls mind when she starts to feel intimidated – seriously, we worry about that kind of stuff, it’s a real, genuine threat to us, not something that’s made up on Crime Call to get ratings.
These guys give the rest of you a bad name, and they’re the ones who are ruining it for you. All the gaming and trickery and deceit makes it harder to trust the ones of you who are genuine. But rather than all gang up and slag us off for not appreciating Kama’s approach, try and understand our point of view a bit. We want you to talk to us, and we want you to get the confidence to do it, however that’s done. We don’t want you to “game” us though.
Gaming is fake and insincere. Nerves are not. We like nervous boys more than arrogant cocky ones. And for every girl that laughs at you (and there are plenty of bitches out there that will) there’s tonnes who won’t and will find it endearing. We’re just as shy as you are – don’t assume we have the upper hand so much!
I reckon we’ll need to agree to disagree on this one, with regards to the “game” – it clearly means different things to each of us. I wish you the best of luck, and all the shy blokes out there too. But next time, when a girl doesn’t like your response, try not to slag her off, call her a lesbian, a retard or whatever. Rejection’s all part of the dating game too isn’t it?! Not everyone’s going to like you. Nobody likes being rejected but it’s parr for the course. Everyone can’t fancy you, just the way you don’t fancy everyone. But hating on someone because they don’t – well frankly it’s a waste of time & energy. (one to pass on to your buddies at IrishSeduction perhaps?)
This is great guys.. really interesting to read an intelligent well argued debate on this.
If I may add another point to Ticklers post..
The majority of girls are raised, from a fairly young age, reading magazines, books, watching TV shows etc which are specifically written to advise girls on how to dress, how to use makeup effectively, how to get the man of their dreams to notice them, and loads more. On top of this, they have other girls to bounce this stuff off; mothers, older sisters, friends etc.
For men (mainly teenagers really..) there doesnt exist a similar culture where they get together and learn how to approach a girl, what to say and what not to say, how to dress to impress etc.. Sure, all the material does exist for men now, but its not really part of our upbringing to discuss with your dad, or your older brother how to win over the girl of your dreams, or whether brown shoes clash with black trousers. And even if it were, there’s a good chance that they would not be the best people to give you that advice in the first place!
You could also argue that we should pick this stuff up naturally, and many do, but many more are still at a disadvantage in this regard.
How many girls have never had help or advice in choosing a dress, or applying makeup?
Isn’t it only fair that guys have something to turn to when preparing for social interaction with girls, just as they do?
Having said that, I do agree with the points that there will always be guys who misuse this material, and who generally get it wrong. But there are also girls who wear far too much makeup and ridiculous outfits..
Its about getting the balance right.
You’re assuming that girls aren’t nervous in the same situations. In all the to-ing & fro-ing today, at no point has a bloke wondered if girls are nervous about approaching guys or chatting to guys. You seem to assume that you’re on the back foot from the outset. You’re not – it’s 50:50
The crux of my posts and I’m officially bored of typing this now – motivate yourself, build your confidence, do what you can to pluck up the courage to talk to people you fancy – it works for guys & girls. We all have things we do to boost our confidence and that’s absolutely fine.
Gaming, tricks, deceit – as evidenced in the original Kama Lifestyles videos are absolutely not! They’re a whole different thing. They appear to be training men to become sexual predators, under the guise of helping them with their confidence. They’re helping them to score girls – not date them, find a girlfriend – just score them/shag them/whatever. It’s a different argument. More confident they may feel, but it’s misguided and not going to help them in the long run.
Neither post has ever said that blokes shouldn’t do what they need to do to chat to girls. I said that the methods being promoted were at best laughable – and laugh is what most people have done about them.
At worst, and I did hold back from saying this – the methods are misogynystic, degrading, lacking in respect and on several levels frankly terrifying. The video “How to Meet & Attract Beautiful Women” with all the techniques and it’s sinister soundtrack is actually downright frightening!
So there, last time I’m going to say it – confidence boosting techniques fine. Intimidating, deceitful, disrespectful games are absolutely, 100%, positively not! End of.
Last few points I have to criticise you on, curly.
“If you’re nervous to approach us – be nervous, tell us you’re nervous, be cheesy as hell and send a drink over, or get your mate to tell us you think we’re pretty, whatever” – I’m sorry but this is complete bullshit. You really believe that telling a girl you’re nervous is going to help in any way? not likely! This may work on you. It ain’t going to work on the leggy blonde in the red dress who all the lads are staring at.
“You seem to assume that you’re on the back foot from the outset. You’re not – it’s 50:50″…No assumptions were made on this. This is coming my own personal experience of being out and about in bars/pubs/clubs in this country and many others. You ask any man and he’ll tell you the same. We are the ones who approach the girls in the vast majority of cases. We are the ones putting ourselves out there, risking rejection. By entering into your space in a social setting, you girls have the upper hand. You have the power as you can choose whether the interaction continues or ends there and then. You may be nervous but this isn’t a turnoff for men. Unfortunately, showing signs of nervousness is enough to kill a potential attraction in a second. It’s common knowledge that women like men who are confident.
You’re completely entitled of your opinion, this is a blog after all. Perhaps the Kama video ain’t the best posterchild for game but there is nothing disrespectful or intimidating about the majority of the techniques employed by these lads. Believe me. I’m a man of morals and I wouldn’t get involved in something that I believed was disrespecting women in any way. There is a code of ethics to game, which myself, and many others who I know, abide by.
If we met in a bar, you wouldn’t feel the slightest bit intimidated, deceived or disrespected…
Anyway, your opinion is your opinion, enough said. Cheerio
I am going to add one final point ( sorry Dena…)
I think something like this is great, basically these days men and women are both confused as to their role and what they should do to attract the opposite sex and how best to talk to them. so personally i think some debate on this as long as we listen to each other and appreciate each others point of view.
Agreed men need confidence to approach women and maybe a few decent lines up your sleeve helps, maybe its like martial arts, you know how to fight and thus never need to, confidence brings you through…..but listen to us lads, be genuine about the lines you use.
For our part we need to learn to meet you halfway, lets flirt and maybe meet you halfway across the room – after all its a long walk back if things dont work out!
I recently did a course hosted by male and female coaches and speakers and i think this is the way forward – we can then learn from each other and maybe start to make sense of this mixed up world!!
Nicola, you’ve hit the nail on the head with your statement “basically these days men and women are both confused as to their role and what they should do to attract the opposite sex and how best to talk to them”. I couldn’t agree more. And that is all that ‘Game’ is trying to do. Admittedly, I COMPLETELY understand why women would be initially revolted at the idea that they could be ‘tricked’ or ‘manipulated’ but I feel like after this healthy debate, we can understand each other a little better.
Funny that you use the analogy of martial arts because ‘venusian arts’ is a synonym often used for game!
Anyway, Nicola and Dena, RESPECT to both of ye. I have valued both your opinions a lot on this. As always, I embrace female perspective.
Best of luck in your future endeavours.
Who knows, with the way things are going, you girls might just be gaming the fuck out of me in a bar somenight….making me feel all intimidated!!! Ha. Only joking! 😉
Cheers,
Keith
Sorry Dena ( again ) but i am going to end this debate with a memory that made me laugh – and in essence proved me at least slightly wrong ( although can i say in my defense i was far far younger and more stupid at the time…)
But my favourite and outstanding chat up line of all time….
Vernon Kay, pair of cheap 3D glasses and the fatal line ‘ i can see you naked with these on’ – but maybe it only works if you are Vernon Kay!?!?
Iron my shirt bitch.
And that is not directed at Dena, because I have met her in person and she is lovely. They should bottle her and give her to sick people.
Hi Dena – and other contributors!
Firstly, may I compliment you Dena on a very professional and remarkably impressive blog. If I may quote Christopher Hitchens you “write like an angel” – fluid, witty,eloquent and concise.
I enjoyed reading your insights and thoughts on the subject of dating as I have the thoughtful musings from Nicola/Tickler/Ali/Stealth.
As one commentator pointed out – you are very astute indeed and clearly brook no bullshit, which is a great attribute to have !
Moreover, contrary to what was said earlier, your eyes are very, very alluring indeed. Hauntingly beautiful – clearly you are doe-eyed vixen.
It is highly unfortunate and deeply regrettable that you have formulated a negative impression of the “male self help movement/pickup/dating/attraction science” community in Ireland.
It is perfectly understandable as to how you may have cultivated this erroneous impression.
Moreover, it is an embarrassing shame that the initial reaction to your scathing critique of KamaLifestyles and “Ripped2Shreds” in particular is a defensive and arguably offensive one.
I think the posters on irishseduction were being satirical and ironic in their original posts and they did not intend to offend.
What is meant to be a throw- a- way remark can appear unsavoury upon second reading.
Some of the posters were a little defensive and invoked sarcasm and exaggeration as “the last refuge of the scoundrels” as a weak defence.
On behalf of my gender, I am deeply apologetic about this even though the comments were said in jest and are displayed out of context.
It is highly regrettable that disparaging remarks were posted there about you and even here on your own blog by some remarkably juvenile posters.
Clearly you have a healthy scepticism and a great understanding of social dynamics.
I can assure you Dena that manipulating women or even worse – misogyny and chauvinism is categorically and emphatically *not* on our agenda.
Yes, some of the terms and jargon used are questionable and a little de-humanising.
Arguably,it is the love of women and all your wonderful and many varieties that has made men go down the path of self-improvement to try to learn what makes men attractive and interesting in the eyes of the fairer sex.
Personally, I have read and deeply admired Simone de Beauvoir, Naomi Wolfe and Germaine Greer. Germaine Greer is sadly getting increasingly eccentric however it is hard not to view Simone de Beauvoir in the highest terms of admiration. I digress………….
irishseduction is merely a forum for guys – similar to other forums in cities around the world- to exchange tips with each other (like Boards.ie) on confidence, social skills and charisma so that they may meet a potential partner.
I agree that it is easy to have a negative impression on the basis of the original video you posted from KamaLifestyles -which is a separate commercial dating company.
Essentially, this whole “pickup skills” scene and subculture is fundamentally about otherwise shy, lonely and socially awkward guys learning social skills, confidence and charisma so that they may approach and ultimately woo a special somebody.
The wider context is of course the book “The Game” by Neil Strauss, which is the fountainhead of the global community of “pick-up”.
What is happening here in Ireland is merely the tip of the iceberg. Ireland is a very, very small pool in a much larger pond.
We all share a common humanity and are all striving for happiness, contentment and fulfillment during our all to brief sojourn on this mortal coil.
Neil Strauss for example has actually been on a number of media outlets over here, such as – Turbidy Tonight, The Times UK, Irish Independent, Lonely.ie,David Fanning Radio Show & Newstalk and the accompanying scene in Ireland was discussed at the time when it exploded here two years ago or so.
I would stronly encourage you to read this excellent book, as it is a riveting, illuminating and hilarious read. It is superbly written.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Game:_Penetrating_the_Secret_Society_of_Pickup_Artists
And here are some articles covering this scene from recent years:
“Two years after Neil Strauss’s The Game revealed the murky world of America’s pick-up artists, seduction schools aiming to impart the secrets of attracting women have sprung up across the UK. Will Pavia enrols at one Glasgow “lair”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/men/article2976222.ece
“My friend and I visited Gypsy Bar not long ago to watch a group of guys test their pickup skills. The men desperately wanted to know whether their lines were effective – mainly because they had paid about $3,000 to learn them.”
“Neil Strauss was useless with women. Then he joined a secret society”
Neil Strauss on Turbidy Tonight
http://www.rte.ie/tv/tubridytonight/20080112.html
There are a number of commercial companies that do teach pickup and dating courses to men in Ireland and the premier such group is LoveSystems, who are very highly regarded indeed.
(Sorry Casanova – taken a few links out. Readers are free to use the quotes you reference to find out more though. Cheers 🙂 )
Hi Casanova,
Thanks for your comments – very eloquent indeed. I can see what you chose the screen name that you did! 😉
I am not cynical about men getting hints, tips, training etc on dating and how to approach women at all. I am all in favour of it. We all have room to improve in a variety of ways and all credit to those that go out there and find answers to their problems – good on you all for doing just that. I also have no issue with there being a forum such as IrishSeductions.com where men can go and trade information, advice and so forth. You’re right, there are similar forums the world over. I haven’t critised either of these things for existing or for being used at all – quite the opposite, I find myself repeatedly confirming my approval of them.
As for the book, “The Game” I have infact already ordered myself a copy this very morning – thought I’d see what all the fuss was about. I’ve heard of it before – in both positive and sceptical reviews. I think you’ll find this article offers a slightly different view on the book than the ones that you have refereneced though (purely offering an alternative view for balance you understand) http://contemporarylit.about.com/od/memoir/fr/theGame.htm
I particularly found the following quotes interesting, with regards to how it can be misinterpreted as more than a mere dating tool:
“The pick-up artists come across as nerdy, emotionally underdeveloped men, usually young, who have chosen to reinvent themselves as sexually irresistible predators by analyzing the nuances of social behavior and “running programs” that hijack these social structures. If this sounds like computer hacking, that’s not too far off: Ross Jeffries, one of the first people to run lectures on PUA techniques (and supposedly the model for Tom Cruise’s character in the film Magnolia), promotes a technique called Neuro-Linguistic Programming (NLP) that combines
hypnosis with a language of gestures and verbal cues to entice women to have sex.”
“The cautionary tale, of course, must also have its unsavory or unappealing aspect. Strauss describes a world that dehumanizes not only the women but the men; a world in which many of the men are social robots, unable or uninterested in any activity beyond seducing an endless number of sex objects; a world without the friendship of women.”
“Because the cautionary tale brags about how the protagonist triumphs over the thing that brought him so much pleasure and so much pain, in the end it reinforces a conventional morality. This does not lessen the temptation of the immoral, hedonistic lifestyle that the story condemns, nor does it render ineffective the models of that subculture. The morality tale allows the narrator to maintain a sensual and depraved charm while remaining morally irreproachable.”
I’ll reserve judgement until I’ve read it though – I’m open-minded like that.
My original post was merely highlighting the laughable methods that Kama Lifestyles appear to charge for. Apologies, but they appear to have bugger all to do with dating, helping men to feel more comfortable around women or building confidence to enable men to approach women in a way that is beneficial to them in the longer-term. Confidence has to come from within – not from knowing that you have the tools to trick a person in letting you achieve your end goal of shooting your load. Help them genuinely feel more confident about themselves and it’ll be more effective. Several comments about this post have referenced Tom Cruise’s character in Magnolia and his ludicrous catchphrase, “respect the cock” – and for good reason! If Kama Lifestyles are about teaching blokes how to go and guarantee you’ll laid – go for broke. Just be honest about it.
As for the comments that were posted about me on IrishSeductions – please don’t try to tell me that they were in any way sarcastic or that I have misinterpreted their jokey, humorous sub-text. There isn’t one! For the most part (by a country mile) they were without a shadow of a doubt, not made in a satirical, ironic, jokey way, but as vicious, personal, derogatory insults. Was I insulted by them? No, not really. I couldn’t give a shit to be honest. But please don’t try and defend them – they said them in the safety of the forum where they didn’t think I’d ever see them, and it pissed them off further when I put them up here – because they got caught being arseholes of the highest order! As evidenced by the fact I got kicked off the community without ever having even tried to defend myself. If they were joking, would that have happened? I don’t think so.
But anyway, thanks for taking the time to write such an eloquent comment about my post. I genuinely appreciate it. However, given the context of the conversation, you’ll have to allow me to remain slightly cynical about all of the flattery – there’s a not too small part of me that wonders whether I’m being “gamed” on my own blog. Which kind of proves another point – it’s a double edged sword isn’t it, this “Game” stuff?! Even when you’re being genuine (if you are being genuine), we have no way of knowing – which breeds cynicism, which makes us harder to approach… and so the wheel turns 😉
The never ending comments!!
Dena has Ben ever really met you? Give you to sick people? you are many things lovely, however my first perhaps not even my last thought would never be that you are to be given to sick people, in fact you shouldnt be allowed anywhere near them….
You would either engage them in a debate of which they had no chance of winning and make them more poorly due to supressed anger OR you would get them drunk and make them literally die laughing….
The thought of you as some hospital angel has just entertained me no end!
And BTW boys this debate spans the ocean i live in Manchester and the boys are even more clueless over here!! lol
He has – he’s a star! And very funny 🙂
I’m no Florence Nightingale though, you’re right there bab, lol.
Men are the same the world over – some great, some not so great, some you’d only let feel you up after way too many JagerBombs and some you’d shame your Granny for… and some you’d send in a rocket to the moon without spacesuit just to get them away from you as quickly as possible. Same as us birds – we’re a mixed bag for sure. Hey I even know some women that would make me cut my cock off rather than sleep with them… if I were a bloke I mean. I don’t have a cock… seriously…
Oh, crap. I may have started a whole new reason for the lads on IrishSeductions to ridicule me. LMAO!
I’d say the group of chicka-chicka-playyyyaaaas were responsible for this http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/date-rape-drug-stolen-from-industrial-estate-410474.html .
Never has the phrase ‘lock up your daughters’ seemed more appropriate than right now. Although i slipped one of those ‘roofies’ into my drink once and woke up in wet patch with a numb hand. As you can appreciate i didn’t ring myself the next day. Shame and lack of self respect etc.
Disclaimer: I have a penis.
I’m getting in on this as soon as I read the comments. I love it when men get angry!
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